Sorry this is so long winded...

There has been lots of ideas and concepts floating around about how/why ethanol is bad for engines not designed for it and what you can do about it.

The are two main problems with adding ethanol to gasoline:
1) Ethanol is far more corrosive than gasoline and can damage engine/fuel system components not designed for it.
2) Ethanol is heavier than gasoline and the two can separate in a matter of weeks. The Ethanol then sinks to the bottom of the tank and: a) collect water and freeze; send concentrations far higher than 10% Ethanol through your engine.

Well, what can we do about this? Good question! There is a lot of debate about this and the problem is so new that no one really knows enough to know for sure. What we do know for sure is that there are a lot of products and fuel additives on the market to deal with this problem.

A lot of folks talk about adding dry gas. While this is almost always just adding alcohol to your gas, common sense says this wouldn't be very effective. Others talk about adding K100, a product designed to deal with this issue. Reports have found that this product is also made up of mostly alcohol, it just costs a lot more. At this point, there isn't enough research out there to guarantee any product as a cure-all for our E10 problem.

This biggest concern is the Alcohol and Gasoline separating over time, just weeks from leaving the refinery. An effective solution, even if not always practical, is to make sure you always have fresh fuel in your sled. Buy fuel at stations that sell a lot and therefor refill their tanks often. Buy regular if your sled doesn't require premium. Some guys around here are running just a bit of Sta-Bil or other fuel stabilizer in each fill-up to try and keep the fuel from separating. Other guys are adjusting their carbs to run a little more rich.

On the other hand, a group of half a dozen to a dozen guys did 700 miles up in the county last weekend. All makes of sleds, none of them put anything in their fuel, and none of them had any problems.

I work for the state, and this year IF&W bought all new Ski-Doo sleds for the department. As of last week they had blown 9 engines, all brand new Ski-Doos. Ski-Doo has been known for running their sleds on the edge of too lean.

In conclusion, try what you want, risk what you will. Don't swear on K100 or any other unproven product, especially at over $10 per bottle.

marine stabil is an oil based product designed to fight the effects of ethanol.

MTBE was to be a panacea too wasn't it????

Of course the REAL solution would be to stop sending liberal pinhead idiots beholden to the green kool-aid drinkers to Augusta... but unfortunately that isn't going to happen in this joint.

QUESTION: How many of the geniuses in Augusta (or Washington) ever talked to a SINGLE engine-builder before deciding that alky was a great thing to put in gasoline????

ANSWER: NONE!!!

I love the fact that it kills a little of your gas mileage. You now have to use more gas to go the same distance. What problem did they really solve? It seems like the greenies can sell any idea even if it doesn't really work. That way when it doesn't work they can say that your not doing enough to make it work.

This problem doesn't have that much to do with the "greenies" as you call them. Most environmentalists are against ethanol because making it produces more greenhouse gases than you could ever save by using it. Socialists are against it because it drives up food prices by farmers from corn for ethanol instead of other foods for edible consumption. This is generally a bi-partisan shift towards domestic energy production. Sure, most of our elected politicians in Maine are democrats. The majority of states have republican governors and almost all states are now using ethanol in their fuels.

Ideally, we would be burning ethanol, or some other form of alcohol, in our vehicles at 100% concentrations. This actually increases fuel economy and efficiency since you can then run compression ratios over 15:1 without a problem. To make the environmentalists and socialists happy, the alcohol would have to be produced using something far more productive than corn, like switchgrass or algae. This would require new engines/fuel systems based on newer technology and different materials, as well as a new or modified fuel delivery infrastructure.

Ive been using marine stabil in my xp

You REALLY don't know the facts do you... put down Pravda & the Kool-Aid....

For openers you burn alcohol at near TWICE the rate of gasoline.... best power with gasoline in a typical 4-stroke engine is at an air:fuel ratio of 12-12.5:1.... it's down around 6.5-7:1 for alky.

(Stoichiometric ratio = 14.7:1 - gas / 9:1 - ethanol)

Want to stuff a 30 gallon tank in your S-10 so you can get the same range per tank as that 16 gallon one of gas?

Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline (125,000 vs 84,600 BTU/Gal)... so unless you've learned how the break the laws of physics you'll never get the moonshine guzzler to be as efficient as the dinosaur remnant cremator.

Also alky reacts no where NEAR as completely or efficiently as gasoline... the reason you can make more power with it is purely because you can run more compression & ignition lead... more squeeze = more power... and you can do that because it's a less efficient reaction... and you're being a TON harder on parts in doing so... it sure isn't going to last near as long as a gas motor that can make near equivilent power and be loads easier on parts doing it.... and the 1st time some dumb-*ss tries to get 15-20K miles between oil changes it's game over.

What comes out the tailpipe is real rosy too...

Imagine being stuck in a traffic jam of pure alky burning vehicles... your eyes would be stinging and watering and your nose would have this lovely burning sensation... how the guys at the back of pack even survive the pace-laps at Indy is beyond me... I hated sitting in the staging area of the pits for more than a few minutes where the Modifieds can run alky .

The move to alky was straight out of the left... and the greenest of the green of them... lead by Algore & the push to reduce "carbon emissions" & "greenhouse gasses"... the ONLY large non-leftist support it got was from heavy corn producing states.... for obvious reasons (follow THAT money trail)... of course the particular brand of loony-toon that sees corporate America and notably "big oil" as the boogyman are naturally on-board lemmings as well.

The rest of your rant was just as accurate... but then you DO work for the inmates that are running this asylum... so I'm not surprised at the complete waste of my tax dollar investment.

Turn off the computer & stop swallowing the BS at ethanol.org / journeytoforever.org / autobloggreen.com / harvestcleanenergy.org and the rest of those crap-info joints.... talk to an actual engine builder.

first off, it takes two entirely different engines to burn these fuels efficiently, so no, running ethanol in an engine set up for gasoline will not work well at all. we shouldn't even joke about using ethanol in our gasoline, it's a complete waste of time and money to implement this fuel in this manner. it's just going to be a loooooong drawn out death of all engines currently produced except the extreme few that are designed to handle the ethanol. the ethanol is increased, and engines are just going to continue failing until there's not left but those that can handle it. it's kinda like the government taking over your front lawn by eminant domain for a new sidewalk. so when your engine fails, don't sue the maker of your car, look to the government. my arguments are strictly with the statements made, not necessarily your mentality.


the compression of the engine running ethanol needs to be much higher in order to reach it's efficiency. it needs to withstand extreme heat. power output is less than gasoline, but compression is higher. with it's high compression and ability to extract power more efficiently from the fuel, the requirement for fuel will be less. strength of the components may not necessarily need to be much stronger, just able to tolerate the heat. just remember, power output is not the driving force, efficiency is.

you may have to burn more ethanol to meet the requirements of power and efficiency needed to run an engine. the efficiency the "scientists" are looking at may not only be in the engine that burns ethanol. the cost of producing ethanol as a fuel vs. gasoline, and the effect it would have on the US economy by becoming a little more independant from outside sources.

the distance between oil changes is determined by the quality of the oil, not necessarily the fuel used to power an engine. 600ft/lbs of torque hammering down on a connecting rod is just that, 600lbs whether it's fueled by high compression ethanol or low compression gasoline. the determining factor is the temperatures reached during combustion, if the components of the ethanol driven engine are engineered properly, it should work just fine.

wikipedia is an information resource that is only as credible as the random people that post to it's content. granted most of the information there is probably true and confirmed, it's no more credible than ethanol.org etc.

couldn't agree with you more. in current engines complete combustion of ethanol is not possible, and we all know that incomplete combustion is not "green". however when it's burned at it's nominal temperature and air/fuel ratio, it's not as bad as it's made out to be. still, not as clean as gasoline. but the production of ethanol may be cleaner. i have no information on production smog output.

please don't take this the wrong way, but i just see a political attack on ethanol, that's all. all of the bad things are revealed, but it's not all bad. it could actually be a good fuel for us in the future. the way the government is introducing this fuel MANDATORILY to us is not cool. the technology exists for this fuel to be used, we just do not have access to it. it is, at this point, not financially feasible to make the change all at once. the only way for it to happen is over a very long period of time. with the changeover of all engines currently being produced to being capable of running ethanol as it's fuel source. it's just not a cost effective change in today's world. there are too many current engines out there on old technology.

instead of everyone just clinging to their marine stabil or k100 thinking that it's the only thing that will help, that's not a good approach. it's just going to get expensive, which is the last thing we need right now. at what point do you stop dumping in treatment to your fuel? the percentage of ethanol is only going to keep rising. are we just supposed to dump more and more treatment per fillup? where's the line to which we do not cross? we have lobbied and pushed and cried for engines that run leaner, stronger, faster than ever before. since 2003 rotax has gone from a 600cc gas guzzling 10mpg engine, to a sipping 25mpg engine, that also uses a rediculously low amount of oil, and makes the same amount of power. seeing that ethanol is here to stay (probably?), we need to change our focus. it's time to start pushing for engines that are capable of dealing with this change. not just in our toys, but our cars as well. gm is on the right track with the flex-fuel engines, capable of running up to e85. it needs to be a mass change if it's going to be successful. the last thing we need now as a country is another mass failure at the government level. "greenies" are the last of my concerns.

rant over, forgive me if this is jibberish and unorganized rambling, it's late, i'm overtired, and there's a bunch of bull%*# coming from the 11 o'clock news that is rediculous. so, from a similar yet different point of view.

Not quite.....

No compression ring setup in any engine currently produced is a 100% flawless seal... fuel contaminates the oil over time & use.... it's a given... it's going to happen.

With gasoline it's not a HUGE deal... we're talking about stuff made from the same source... so they tend to play well together... alky is a much different story.

I wish I still had a set of engine bearings to show you I had pulled from an alky burner that I used as examples to stress the importance of religious oil changes in an alky engine... they were a pitted mess... wouldn't have lasted another 50 laps.

(NOTE: If you show them that just as they happen to be writing the 5-figure check for the engine it helps accentuate the point )

Gasoline mixes with oil.... Alcohol DISPLACES oil.... been there... done that... seen it... got the T-shirt.

Last I knew Ford was saying to change the oil in an E85 vehicle at 3000 miles... with 5-7K being the interval for gas .

And alky engines ARE harder on parts... in a lot of different ways... you'll never get the same life out of a alky motor.... even one designed to run on it.... that you will from a gas engine... not with current production technology & materials.



Which is the reason for that line in my sig.

Wow. I'm not sure I've ever been accused of being a communist. This tread was also not intended to be a political discussion. It was intended to offer the opportunity for fellow Ski-Doo owners to toss around ideas about how to deal with our Ethanol problem. Although I feel your anger is misplaced, Dix, I respect your knowledge on the subject since you clearly have some first hand experience with the issue at hand.

That being said, I ask for your opinions and advice on the best, safest, and most cost effective way to snowmobile with equipment that is technologically outdated for the fuel we are being provided. Considering over 1100 gas stations in Canada sell ethanol blended fuel, and many stations in the US are selling only blended fuel, I think its asinine that Ski-Doo has not seriously addressed this issue. Maybe they have and I am in the dark on it, I don't know everything after all.

Please feel free to offer your thoughts and suggestions on this matter. Thank you.

So I talked to a dealer and they said most of us with stock (unjetted) units should be just fine....just check your plugs and make sure they are not burning lean....He also said that they have been running the ethanol fuel out west for a few years now.....He called Jackman dealer and asked about the rumored sleds that have been blowing up due to the ethanol and they LAUGHED, they said they had 15 sleds there for service work, none that had blown up!

Some sleds have blown up I know, but dont think they were blown because of the fuel...rather than lack of maintenance!

He said stock sled from factory are set rich anyway..dont worry about it!

BRRAAP!

There's the advice I follow... if your sled is stock & has all factory updates, keep fresh gas in the tank & ride it.

If you're inclined to be worried... use either marine Stabil or Star Tron (the only two I know of that contain no alcohol)

The one's I usually see with problems are the guys that have "this can", "that set of pipes", doesn't have the 1st clue about how to tune & monkeyed with his carbs the way his "buddy" told him... then you see him posting pics of his pistons in the forum & there will be a half-dozen replies all blaming the "bad gas boogyman".

My anger is FAR from misplaced Velcro.... it's directed squarely at the pinheaded politicians that come up with this stuff without having a clue what they are doing... the absolute idiots that elect said pinheads... and the complete BS artists that sell this particular bill of goods to solve a non-existent problem (or at minimum one we have nothing to do with and can do nothing about) all ginned up to suit their own particular agenda.

It's from there that mis-information gets regurgitated (like your second post, which was chock full of it) enough times so that it gets traction.

Let me just add a little more fuel to the fire. I was speeking with a mechanic friend of mine about this subject. He said to run 1 gal of VP RED leaded 110 octane to 4 gal of 87, end result by mixing the two you would have an octane ratting of 91.6. by using the 87 the gas is more explosive and has less additives , but burns dirty which creates heat. buy adding the 110 you up the octane and have a cleaner cooler burning fuel with less ethanol. yes it is expensive at about $12 a gal, but its better for the motor and you get around the ethanol issue.

Broyall... you aren't "getting around the ethanol" with that concoction... the only difference between that mix and straight 91 octane premium is 2% less ethanol and a little bit of added lead. (assuming the octane math is right... I didn't check it)

That's a lot of added cost for no real significant gain.

Different octane rated gasolines don't burn any "hotter" or "cooler" to any significant degree... what they really do is REACT faster (lower octane) or slower (higher octane)

(I actually hate the word "burn"... it's a controlled "reaction", not an uncontrolled "burn")

Higher octanes (usually beyond what's needed for the application) may show up as lower engine temps but not because it reacts any cooler... but because less of the actual reaction is taking place when the combustion chamber volume is smaller... in other words, more of the reaction is taking place after the piston has gone well past TDC... this actually HURTS power output in some cases as the expansion of the reaction can't keep up with the increasing cylinder volume.

Using an octane rating over and above what your engine is designed for is a waste of money, and potentially a waste of useable energy production.

Hey Dix, Do you Race?? This info I get is from High end race mecanics, sorry if you don't like like wording, But i try to explain it in simple form, besides I wasn't adding a replay to get ridiculed!! I was trying to start a civil conversation.

Built racing engines for years... from hobby stocks all the way up to and including NASCAR modifieds.... up to the late 90s.

Petrochemistry is something I have a long history with... and countless dyno hours experimenting with.

I'm not starting anyting... your buddy is just plain wrong... on nearly all counts... but that's not surprising... that type of misconception about a fuel's octane rating is common.

or this one....



Disregarding the "explosive" part... we're not making bombs here... but pump gas has FAR more additives than ANY race gas ever has... or will.

Your "buddy" has NO CLUE what he's talking about... period.

Maybe I missunderstood him, so i could be wrong. In this case i am willing to learn.

So, back to the issue of what can we do to protect our investments (sleds)? I have been using Fitch fuel catalyst for keeping my fuel fresh but am not sure if these do anything for the E10 gas.

K100, go to the web site. seems like good stuff. Ask Dix he should know

i am doing absolutely nothing about the ethanol problem. i make sure i shake the snot out of my sled before i start it though.

and btw, i'm not holding back on the throttle either. 850 miles this year and no problems.

what exactly does shaking the snot out of your sled do?

Just to add some more E-10 to the fire ... I have spoken with several dealers and the consensus is this:

1. Early season engine failures have been the typical ones due to engine modifications, poor maintenance, not properly storing the sled off season, not performing pre-season maintanence, and normal wear and tear.

2. The "Dramatic" increase of engine failures is just rumor and folk lore.

3. If you have been taking care of your sled and maintaining it well, you should not see any increase risk of engine failure if you just use reasonable precautions to keep water out of the fuel system.

4. E10 will clean your fuel system so any old gunk, varnish, etc. will get moved to the fuel filters (or the combustion chamber if it is beyond the filter). So if you have an older sled, you should check your filters and replace them if needed once the system is clean, or after a few tanks. If you can't remember when you last tore your carbs down and cleaned everything ... they say "Do it Now".

5. The additives may not make any real difference but if you want to err towards an abundance of caution then use K-100 or Marine Stabil.

Finally, I heard a report of 4 sleds that burnt down on the trail within 10 minutes of each other two weekends ago. One of the dealers that I spoke to had specific knowledge on a couple of the sleds and said that it was an issue with contaminants in the gas at the station they had filed up at. Of course the station claims that they had no issues with any other customers ...

Bottom line ... I work hard to take care of my equipment and will use marine stabil just for the peace of mind ... not because I need it.

Think Snow

Shaking will do nothing to mix fuel already effected by phase seperation.



Smart man. :thumbsup:

Ive had one issue at the beggining of the season. I cleaned the carbs and drained the tank and things are just fine now. The whole engines blowing up, yeah if by blowing up you mean burning up it has been happening, but its not very common. The fuel gums up and clogs up the carb and the air/fuel mixture is thrown way off. Most likely if a bad case of fuel seperation has occured it simply just wont run. But i did learn through this not to add dry gas due to certain contents, if your gonna use additives (though not really needed)use octane boost and even better k-100. It is expensive but it works. Im from mass so the E-10 is nothing new to me. Just try not to let it sit too long and youll have no problems. Just keep your gas fresh and continue the same way you would as if it wasnt in the gas. Just remember too take precaution when storing your machine for a lengthy amount of time.

Yeah the alcohol in the dry gas washes all the oil down the cylynder walls. end result, losing all the lubrcation